If Boxee is to make it, then basics like get into, and bug reports...

[jmichaels]

I came here from XMBMC to Plexx to Boxee. I could not deal with Plexx and their rapid release schedule where it would seem releases were done on a whim at the request of a few well known "leaders".

I wanted more solidarity in a product moving forward. Not a product that happens to have a single good developer behind it, but basically the sole Mac developer, who could pack up and go at any time. This is not good for the community.

There are now three fragmentations of this media center, XBMC, Plexx, and Boxee. XMBC is probably the most true to OSS and correct in their use of a team, bug tracker, politics, and how they move their app forward. Yes, they are slower, but in the long run, they are being smarter, and making it a lot easier for both Boxee and Plexx.

That being said...

I filed a bug report, that Boxee does not report the version number in the Get-Info window on Mac OS X. Quite the trivial issue to be honest...

Specifically I stated:

As with all Mac OS X applications, selecting the application, and pressing command-I or selecting File -> Get Info within the Finder will bring up the details of the selected file, directory, or application.

Boxee does not report the version string in the Get Info window. This makes it very hard to keep older versions in the event a new release breaks functionality. The only way I can get the version is to put the app in place, launch it, and look for it within the app itself, which I am not even sure how to do.

* I meant that it often is a menu navigation nightmare in Boxee, XBMC, and Plexx.

Now, keep a few things in mind. #1, I pointed out I was aware the only way to get the version was to go into the app itself. #2, if we as users are to beta test this app, provide feedback in forums, bug tracker posts, and in general, do all we can to move this product forward, then we are doing what we can as end users.

Boxee is very closed compared to both XBMC and Plexx, which is their right, but it should not take a massive community voting scheme to get the point across that in application deleting of files, especially if Boxee is working on hardware for a set top box. It could even be an advanced feature off by default.

With this closed-nature, they are ending up with a product that is not set top box ready. I could, and would be happy to list all the things that make something like Apple's Front Row, from a UI and UX standpoint, that much more applicable to a non technical end user. Based on the reply to my bug report above, I certainly feel that would be a waste of my effort.

The reply I received:

Hi
The version can be found via the Settings >general screen.

Regards

The goal is not to close out as many tickets as possible, but to look at the tickets, and find an appropriate solution. What bothers me about this, is it is a clear case of a ticket just being closed. I already stated in my initial report, that "The only way I can see to get the version is to put the app in place, launch it, and get it within the app itself".

This fell in deaf ears obviously, as it was regurgitated back to me in the support reply. It is important to read the incoming tickets in full, and not present what appears to be a canned reply, or something vague, or something that I obviously, by statement, was already aware of.

Acceptable could have been: At this stage of development, we move too quickly to add a version string to the Get-Info Window. Or... Due to the way in which we deploy/build for multiple OS's, this is a challenge we are working on resolving into our build workflow.

This "feature" is important on a few levels. One, is that all Mac applications follow this convention. I have been beta testing for years, for some small, and some large companies. A report such as this is immediately seen as something to work towards solving. The developers understand, that as a beta tester, I am moving in and out multiple versions, often times, multiple times a day, or even many times in only a few minutes.

My job is to provide a good bug report, not a half baked one. Before I reply to a bug report, I need to determine if it is a new bug, or a regression. In order to do so, I may need to step back through one to who knows how many versions until I hit a working version for the bug in question. I can then state, "problem x regressed at version x.y, and was working in version x.y.z.

This is valuable to the developer, as they can go into their version control system, and perhaps locate the exact diff where the problem is. It cold be as simple a fix as just pushing the diff forward or backward.

For me to do this now, I have to launch the app, test for the problem, dig around in the menu's, and get to the version. And what if that version is not correct, I have no basis to compare it to. Right now, I am using the general logic that each Boxee release gets somewhat larger, and sorting by size will mostly sort by version. But OS X has this handy thing where you can show the "version" in a column, which is a great deal of data at a glance data. I can jump back 5 versions looking for a regression.

An end users motivation to provide good bug reports is directly proportional to how much work they have to do to get the data they need to send in. If it is work just to get a version number, the end user is not going to even bother to test at what version it broke. Bug reports of "I am using the most current version, and the version before that worked fine" will be what you get, instead of "I am using version x.y which broke feature a, whereas version x.y.z worked fine".

I understand this seems petty, but I like Boxee, and want to see it succeed. I have considered building my own set top box based on Boxee, and putting into scale production a consumer ready box. But without being able to work with Boxee to get a stable product, I would only make it appear as though my hardware product were garbage.

While the larger issues are indeed important, sweating the details is what will always set apart an app. There are a million tip calculators for the iPhone, there is one that is a top seller, at a glance, and you can tell why. They sweat the details, down to a pixel level. Email them, and I am sure you will get the feeling they very much care about their users.

Not to say Boxee does not care about their users, but when I reply to the bug report with:


Thanks, I believe I pointed that out in my initial report. Get-Info windows, on Mac OS X always show the version number. While yes, you can get to the version, when you are testing, tying to compare one version to the other, to have to launch, to only find out you have launched the wrong version, is a slow process. I am not sure why you could not just set the version string before build?

For example, see the attached Safari Get-Info window, this is how all apps in my Applications folder report the version number.

What if the bug itself was with the remote, which has been an issue in the past, or just a bug with navigation in general, how then would you get to the version number? Yes, a rare hypothetical, but bugs generally work in odd ways.

And today, the bug is closed as:

Your request has been deemed solved.

Does that mean they are going to add version numbers, or does that mean that this is standard operating procedure, and we should not expect version numbers in the app at a local level? But hey, at least you have one less ticket to manage.

Do we want a Comcrap box sitting attached to our televisions, or do we want something truly amazing? There was a time when that aged Nokia Flip phone everyone had was a cool phone. Then these new touch screen phones came out, setting a high bar for which UI and UX are highly important aspects.

First and foremost, Boxee needs to be able to play as many file formats as possible. Outside of that, Boxee, in my opinion, needs to be the most polished application there is for an end user. It must pass the "grandmother test". Boxee, XBMC, and Plexx all do not even come close.

Sorry for the rant, but I do hope that Boxee higher ups see this, and reach out to their community, as that is who they are making this device/software for.

Yes, people will buy the set top box one day, and yes, people will download it and use it, and even love it. Having a large user base because there is no competition is one of the hardest things to deal with, as you have nothing to try to beat. I believe Boxee is largely in this position.

I hope that no one takes this as complaining, but as a passionate user who sees holes that are solvable. If thought of as long term goals, in the time frame of years, not weeks, Boxee will end up being a household name. I hope to see Boxee a household name. However, without some serious feature removal, and concentration on pure User Experience, that is not going to happen. Does my grandmother care about SMB? Will she ever use the advanced settings to attach an obscure network device? No? Then hide those away, create a core app that is as simple to use as turning on, and you will indeed take this market by storm. Stop making an app for the 1% of the advanced users, and make one for the 99% of the world who has not yet learned there is a different way to watch television.

Thanks for listening.

[NomadDNA]

Here's the SparkNotes:

I've included a screen shot to help others understand what you've described in your post. As I understand it, your post expressed concerns that:

1) Boxee does not display the version information in the apple+i information box
2) Boxee's developers did not give due consideration to your JIRA post(s).
3) And as a consequence of #1, and #2, Boxee will not meet the standards of consumer's needs.


http://lh5.ggpht.com/_Jdmf_e_Dmck/S5AZ-nHWLSI/AAAAAAAABlM/1gNCJ0Z8xYI/s800/Screen%20shot%202010-03-04%20at%203.36.34%20PM.png

[darcilicious]

This is my third attempt to write a response, believe it or not. You seem to be upset about one minor issue (for a feature that only a few users on one operating system would use) and seem to be using it as a platform to say that Boxee developers don't care enough about detail for Boxee to succeed in the market place.


The goal is not to close out as many tickets as possible, but to look at the tickets, and find an appropriate solution. Actually, you've missed a step: which is to first determine if the issue is to be solved at all. In this case, right or wrong, agree or disagree, it doesn't appear that Boxee developers are currently interested in implementing this feature.


For me to do this now, I have to launch the app, test for the problem, dig around in the menu's, and get to the version. And what if that version is not correct, I have no basis to compare it to. Right now, I am using the general logic that each Boxee release gets somewhat larger, and sorting by size will mostly sort by version. But OS X has this handy thing where you can show the "version" in a column, which is a great deal of data at a glance data. I can jump back 5 versions looking for a regression.

To address you concern directly about tracking versions: do this http://support.boxee.tv/entries/43963-i-ve-been-asked-by-boxee-support-to-send-debug-logs-how-do-i-do-that for each Boxee install. You'll see the version number by just starting up Boxee. No more digging around menus needed. No guesswork required.

Frankly, I have run up to three different versions of Boxee beta on two different OS's on three different computers at any given time and haven't ever needed the feature you've requested. And I'm a very active beta tester. However, if you feel it's key to Boxee's success to have this feature, then you need to head on over to http://www.getsatisfaction.com/boxee and get people to vote for it.


I have considered building my own set top box based on Boxee, and putting into scale production a consumer ready box. But without being able to work with Boxee to get a stable product, I would only make it appear as though my hardware product were garbage. This seems to suggest that unless testing and reporting are done in a way that you're used to, Boxee won't succeed or even become stable. I'm sure that's not what you mean but it does seem to be what you've typed here.

In either case, it seems you may want to consider adapting your working/testing style to how things work in the Boxee community. Not all software communities operate the same, expect the same of users or testers, and the like. It may be time for you to step back and consider how you can best fit in with the community.


However, without some serious feature removal, and concentration on pure User Experience, that is not going to happen. Does my grandmother care about SMB? She does if she's got multiple computers on her network, possibly with multiple user accounts.


Will she ever use the advanced settings to attach an obscure network device? No? Then hide those away [...] How are these settings front and center now? Grandma can safely ignore them if she doesn't have a network by never clicking on the Network icon in the Settings area.

You're going to have to come up with better examples I'm afraid. Frankly, I can come up with quite a few for the Settings area but this wouldn't be one of them.


While the larger issues are indeed important, sweating the details is what will always set apart an app.
I'm also very cognizant of where Boxee is in the general phase of beta development. Polishing comes after getting all the major features taken care of -- many of which still need a lot of work in the current beta version.

[jmichaels]

Here's the SparkNotes:

I've included a screen shot to help others understand what you've described in your post. As I understand it, your post expressed concerns that:

1) Boxee does not display the version information in the apple+i information box
2) Boxee's developers did not give due consideration to your JIRA post(s).
3) And as a consequence of #1, and #2, Boxee will not meet the standards of consumer's needs.

[duplicate image removed -- NomadDNA]

Sort of :)
I can see this thread degrading quickly, which I had anticipated, and probably should have put a lot more time into careful choice of my words. At the end, I did state, is is purely my passion for this app that even makes me care about this.

That being said, which I will elaborate more on in the next reply, it is not so much the version string in the get info window, as I feel that sets a general tone for how all aspects of Boxee are looked at from the developers.

I am not in the loop of those developers, so I have no idea if that is true, but it is the feeling I come off with, which I suppose, is the important thing to consider about all this.

[darcilicious]

While I respect your passion for Boxee (and you're not the only passionate about it :) ) I disagree with your conclusion about the attitude of the developers based on one incident.

[NomadDNA]

While I respect your passion for Boxee (and you're not the only passionate about it :) ) I disagree with your conclusion about the attitude of the developers based on one incident.

It is a bit like judging a person's character by the quality of their handwriting...

but i guess some people make a living doing that...

[jmichaels]

I apologize if this reply is not quoted correctly. It seems I can not get multi-nested quoting to auto populate...

There are some spelling and grammar errors in here, I just don't have it in me :-) to proof this a third time after the forums ate it asking me to login again.


This is my third attempt to write a response, believe it or not. You seem to be upset about one minor issue (for a feature that only a few users on one operating system would use) and seem to be using it as a platform to say that Boxee developers don't care enough about detail for Boxee to succeed in the market place.

How come the third attempt? Just curious. Did I do something incorrect? Or as this is now my third attempt, is it the timeout on these forums, which is killing me, thank god I copied before posting :-)

I want to clarify. Yes, it is a minor issue, and no, I would not quite use the word upset. I am more tying to get a point across that the version string is something that helps beta testers provide better reports back to the developers. How often do you get "I am using the most current version" which really means nothing, as a release may have just come out hours before. Are they using that? Who knows.

I do not think Boxee developers do not care about detail, I do think that the details they do care about should be re-evaluated. And that does not include much evaluation of this version info string in the get info box. For me it was just a trigger that got me thinking, that if this is so easily dismissed, what else is also dismissed.

The ticket was closed without letting the reporter (me) know what the state of the initial report was.


Actually, you've missed a step: which is to first determine if the issue is to be solved at all. In this case, right or wrong, agree or disagree, it doesn't appear that Boxee developers are currently interested in implementing this feature.

I would not know, I can only assume that to be the case when the ticket is just closed and not given a reason why. The ticket I believe was marked as resolved, for which could be interpreted as confirmed, no fix, will no fix, etc.



To address you concern directly about tracking versions: do this http://support.boxee.tv/entries/43963-i-ve-been-asked-by-boxee-support-to-send-debug-logs-how-do-i-do-that for each Boxee install. You'll see the version number by just starting up Boxee. No more digging around menus needed. No guesswork required.

I have never been asked to do those steps, but if my bug report was of that nature, crash logs and any logs for that matter are always included. I like to do more work on my end up front if possible, which is what is inspiring this point. I can send alone a "this does not work" with the log files; I feel it better to say "Version X does not work" but also be able to say that I also stepped it back past previous versions, and perhaps discovered regression,

I try to keep versioned directories of Application Support and preferences, as well as whatever other files are hooked to the current running version. This way, I can go back to an exact state, not just the application state, but my preferences state as well.



Frankly, I have run up to three different versions of Boxee beta on two different OS's on three different computers at any given time and haven't ever needed the feature you've requested. And I'm a very active beta tester. However, if you feel it's key to Boxee's success to have this feature, then you need to head on over to http://www.getsatisfaction.com/boxee and get people to vote for it.

I do not feel this is key to Bexee's future or success. It is something that would make things simpler on those who are actively testing in my humble opinion. It is also a pretty long standing tradition in how you determine the version of an application on the Mac. I am beta testing 4 other apps now, officially, in private beta, and have been asked, or seen it been asked on the private mailing lists, to use get-info to confirm a version. For me, it is not uncommon at all.

This is not a feature worthy of the space in Get Satisfaction, but more something that is just part of the Mac OS X built tool-chain, and I for one, really do not understand why it is being omitted.



This seems to suggest that unless testing and reporting are done in a way that you're used to, Boxee won't succeed or even become stable. I'm sure that's not what you mean but it does seem to be what you've typed here.

No, that is not the message I want to get across, and I apologize if that is how it is being interpreted. I can say without hesitation, that in all my Macintosh alpha or beta testing, this is not an issue of something I am used to, but something that is often used as a tool in Macintosh based testing. I have not done testing on Windows, or Linux, though am involved significantly on the Mac, as well as with *nix related s-ware, where usually a -v will get me the version, or a --help, or whatever.

I am sure Boxee will become stable, I have serious doubts about how well it will be adopted by the masses based on the current UI and UX. I mean this in all honesty, with no snideness or otherwise negative connotations. The end user experience needs an overhaul in my strong opinion. The core is good, even great in my use. Arrangement of the visual aspects of the application is very programmer centric, and not very "self documenting".

I do not even now how to begin to report issues of that nature. Spend weeks mocking up suggestions, or perhaps, this thing is significantly more "skinnable" than I have learned.



In either case, it seems you may want to consider adapting your working/testing style to how things work in the Boxee community. Not all software communities operate the same, expect the same of users or testers, and the like. It may be time for you to step back and consider how you can best fit in with the community.

Fair enough.



She does if she's got multiple computers on her network, possibly with multiple user accounts.

And you do not feel that is a big "if"? Puling out of my rear, 99% of those who watch TV, are doing so though some Comcastic Box, or similar, all of which have limited if no capacity to connect to other devices. Of course, we all want those abilities and they are already in the core, so there is no sense in removing them.

I am strongly in favor of two modes. Those one we have now, and the one that would mimic that which will fit the needs of the 99% of the users out there. The other day I was providing support for a Macintosh user of 10+ years, to get her on a wifi network, unable to do so. Why? She was not aware that you had to press the "OK" button after entering in your password. While this is an extreme case of WTF, being in support for the better part of my life, it is also the norm.

So yes, she may have multiple computers, and multiple user accounts, but more than likely, she will not, nor will she even know what those terms mean, or how they apply to her.



How are these settings front and center now? Grandma can safely ignore them if she doesn't have a network by never clicking on the Network icon in the Settings area.

And for the few Windows machines I have worked on, to clean just their desktop of the shortcuts that lead to aol and other nefarious installers, I am always left with resistance. Once that jeanie is out of the bottle, you can not put it back in. Take something away, and the user will feel it is a lesser product. If they never see it to begin with, they do not feel they are being short changed. This is again going back to my idea of a standard mode and an advanced mode.

Without pulling out the "your a fanboy" card, time will tell how this pans out when the iPad comes out. This type of UI/UX is very much what I personally would lead Boxee to mass adoption.



You're going to have to come up with better examples I'm afraid. Frankly, I can come up with quite a few for the Settings area but this wouldn't be one of them.

Correct, this is certainly not one of them. This probably is not even the right thread for that discussion. Is Boxee 100% controllable in the UI/UX from a themeing/skinning standpoint? If that is the case, then this is solvable in that area, if not, it would be how I would approach solving it.



I'm also very cognizant of where Boxee is in the general phase of beta development. Polishing comes after getting all the major features taken care of -- many of which still need a lot of work in the current beta version.

I do not know what the roadmap is for that polishing. If it is just cleaning up the current UI, then I see that as a barrier, if it is sitting down and starting over on how the user interacts with the UI, then that is a different story. As it stands now, I do not know how to get that information.

Again, I can not stress enough how my post was an effort to make matters better, not worse, and I hope I can swing this topic in that direction.

[darcilicious]

I am more tying to get a point across that the version string is something that helps beta testers provide better reports back to the developers. And I've provided you with an alternative that is adequate. And probably explains why the developers have decided not to implement a feature you've requested.

So, how are you reporting issues exactly? Because if you're using jira, you have a list of possible versions which makes

How often do you get "I am using the most current version" which really means nothing
a moot point.

As far as the UI goes, in general, I think it works very well so we'll have to agree to disagree. While there are definitely improvements that could be made (e.g. customizing the Home screen is probably going to have to happen at some point) I can't say it needs a complete overhaul. But then, I'm not in charge of these things either so I could be proven totally wrong at any point in the future.

[jmichaels]

And I've provided you with an alternative that is adequate. And probably explains why the developers have decided not to implement a feature you've requested.

So, how are you reporting issues exactly? Because if you're using jira, you have a list of possible versions which makes

a moot point.

As far as the UI goes, in general, I think it works very well so we'll have to agree to disagree. While there are definitely improvements that could be made (e.g. customizing the Home screen is probably going to have to happen at some point) I can't say it needs a complete overhaul. But then, I'm not in charge of these things either so I could be proven totally wrong at any point in the future.

Well, I had a reply, but these forums ate it again, and I did not copy. This will be quick..

I do not think the devs have decided not to implement this "feature", at least, they have not stated so one way or another. Considering they are taking the time to make a Mac OS X package installer, I don't see why one would skip the version field.

It will become important over time, for package receipts, uninstallers, and ARD installs that are targeting large user bases. Right now, ARD would probably barf on a remote update as it sees the version at "version --".

To this day, the TiVo interface is still spoken of highly. I believe it can be one upped, but no one has yet.

[NomadDNA]

jmichaels, could you provide a link to the jira reports you mentioned? We did a search, and were unable to find any records.

[marcel]

opened a bug on this in jira ...http://jira.boxee.tv/browse/BOXEE-4505

[jmichaels]

jmichaels, could you provide a link to the jira reports you mentioned? We did a search, and were unable to find any records.

Hello NomadDNA,
I do not think it is in Jira, which is why you can not locate it. This was a source of confusion for me, so I just followed the instructions on the website as best as I could:

http://www.boxee.tv/ -> Login -> Support ( Upper Right of Screen) -> I am redirected to -> http://boxee.zendesk.com/home

I read that page, at the bottom is states:

If you want to report a bug or ask us a question you should visit http://support.boxee.tv and read through our Getting Starte

That link takes me to pretty much the same page as far as I can tell, ( http://support.boxee.tv/portal ) so I just clicked on "SUBMIT A REQUEST", and filled out the form.

Clicking on "CHECK YOUR EXISTING REQUESTS" tells me I do not have any, but I can, from a link off to the right, view my "Solved and closed requests".

That is request ID# 11904

I take it I put the report in the wrong location? Perhaps the ZenDesk thing should be closed off and redirect to the Jira one? I do not know the difference, so I just went by what the website instructed me to do.

I hope that answers your questions. If not, feel free to reply to this and I will do my best to answer in more detail.

[marcel]

@jmichaels this feature has been placed in jira for the developers to review please note it is not really a bug but a feature that will be nice to have

[agentlame]

That is a whole lotta text about a version number.

Hopefully Boxee puts this at the top of the list, considering how much discussion has gone on around it. I sure wouldn't want Boxee as a company or product to fail over a missing version string.

[DPK]

That is a whole lotta text about a version number.

Hopefully Boxee puts this at the top of the list, considering how much discussion has gone on around it. I sure wouldn't want Boxee as a company or product to fail over a missing version string.

Oh Neil. :p

[judgeschambers]

Lol "><" ....